How to design your podcast listener journey with Desola Davis

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by a free AI tool called Otter. Please forgive any typos or errors. Melissa Guller 0:00 Before we get started, I have something new, fun, and free to share. After working closely with hundreds of podcasting students, I realized that different podcast hosts benefit from different podcast formats, marketing strategies, and monetization approaches to suit your goals. That’s why I put together a new short quiz called, “What’s your podcast host advantage?”, which you’ll find at witandwire.com/advantage. My goal is to help current and aspiring podcast hosts figure out what makes you unique as a podcaster, and along with your results, I’ll also share a few personalized tips to help you grow. Since you’re the first to take it, I’d love to know what you think. Again, the URL to take the quiz is witandwire.com/advantage. Podcast Intro 0:40 Welcome to Wit & Wire, where we take you behind-the-scenes to learn how to start and scale a successful podcast that makes an impact. I’m your host, Melissa Guller, a Podcast Producer, Host, and Instructor on a mission to amplify and diversify voices in podcasting. No matter how new or seasoned you are as a host, I can’t wait to help you find more listeners, expand your audience, build authentic connections, and hit the charts. Melissa Guller 0:59 As a podcast host, the one thing that’s more important to me than anything else is, of course…you! Loyal listeners are the heart of any great podcast, so it’s worth asking ourselves, how can we find not just more listeners, but great listeners? And how do strangers on the internet become our biggest cheerleaders and ambassadors over time? It’s such an important question to ask, so today, I invited customer journey designer Desola Davis to join me as we unpack the best ways to nurture leads, build relationships, and give our people exactly what they need at exactly the right time. Not only that, but Desolah will share more about what she calls your “secret sauce,” which will help differentiate you as the clear best option for not only your dream podcast listeners, but your ideal clients and students, too. Now let’s meet today’s guest. De SO la Davis is a Customer Journey Designer who helps online course creators and coaches design a delightful sales experience that makes their customers do a happy dance while they buy. She has a knack for bringing clarity and confidence to the sales process–a superpower that has helped her clients make over $100K in the last 6 months. In her 10+ years of corporate experience, she has also designed several cost-saving projects totaling over $1M. Her joy is to help online creators and thought leaders find their raving fan base, spend more time working with their dream clients, and leverage their positioning advantage to grow their business. Let’s kick off our conversation by first asking, what exactly is a customer journey, and why does it matter for podcasters? Desola Davis 2:47 The way I define it is from where a person defines their problem realizes that they have a problem. And it goes all the way until that problem is solved. This is different from a sales funnel the way it’s traditionally taught, which means you attract a lead, you convert the lead, you make the sale recipe. And so sales funnels are typically built to help you get more sales, they do exactly what they’re designed to do versus a customer journey that keeps the problem at the center. And the way I teach it to some folks as well when I coach them is it keeps the problem at the center. It keeps your customer the hero and it keeps you as the guy. And so it gives you that freedom and the courage to continue to share what it is that you do for people how you solve their problems and how you hold a solution. For someone who has been hit. They spent, you know, endless hours, perhaps a lot of resources, a lot of time, a lot of money searching for someone who does exactly what you do. It removes imposter syndrome, which I consider myself an imposter syndrome warrior. And it keeps relationships at the center as well. Because I believe that at the end of the day, it’s about forming relationships and then developing those relationships so that you can make. So that’s customer journey in two minutes or less. Melissa Guller 4:10 I love that reframe too, because I think a lot of people feel really stressed about selling. But when you think of it as you are the guide, you have the solution to their problems, then it really becomes very like service oriented and becomes very helpful. And then it starts to maybe help people start to see selling as a positive thing instead of this kind of negative thing that gets a bad rap. Desola Davis 4:33 Yeah, absolutely. And I also helped my clients reframe the sales because a lot of times when they come to me it’s one of two things they they created an offer that they actually really don’t like or they don’t like their sales funnel for one reason or the other. And so it just turns into this whole threw the baby out with the bathwater like I hate selling I just want to like outsource it or you know you keep talking about these delightful customer journeys but I really can’t see how I will ever enjoy selling so you know If you think about the fact that when someone has a problem, like think back to last time, like you had a, I was talking to you about a problem that I had, before we jumped on this podcast interview, and how much time you devote to removing the frustration. And just like stuckness, you have, whenever you have that problem, I tell them, problems make people feel powerless. And so if you have a solution that can help them get that power back, help them kind of move on from where they feel like they can’t pass, go or collect $200, and all of that, that does put you in a very powerful position to them. And, in my mind, if someone’s on fire, I don’t need to check how big my fire extinguisher is, if it’s going to help them, let me tell you that I have something to help you with. And so just reaffirming that realizing that at the end of the day, so it’s not really about you, it’s really about Melissa Guller 5:56 as an example, what’s a problem that you help people with? Desola Davis 6:00 Oh, very good. I help people create delightful sales experiences that they enjoy. And they feel confident, employing their dream clients into I help them create a delightful customer journey, but then also grow a loyal raving fan base of people who are always primed and ready to invest in working with them. Melissa Guller 6:23 And as an online business owner, myself, I know how many, you know pains, we feel day to day, there’s a lot of positive stressors on your business, and a lot of I think good pressure to really provide a good service and keep your business afloat. And so you’re talking about this delightful customer journey. So I imagine for me, then that could be my problems are I’m not getting the kinds of customers that I want or I feel like I should be further ahead than I am. And I’m doing all these things, right. But it feels like maybe those sales funnels we talked about, like they’re not converting or just doesn’t feel like it’s all the way there. And that would be a huge stress to my business. And so you would just be a breath of fresh air. Desola Davis 6:57 Yes, exactly. Right. And I tell people, you know, I say customer journeys are really what I sell is 30 and competence. Because a lot of the owners that come to me a lot of the especially in the online business industry, they haven’t been part they’ve heard all the lingo, they know what a lead magnet is, they know what a conversion experience or a launch event or main event, whatever you want to call it, you know what all those things are, but somehow they’re not talking to each other. Somehow, you know, people are ending up in their DMS asking them about services that they don’t provide, or inviting them to work with them and pay them for something else, you know, they’re not getting qualified leads, people aren’t on the whatever social media platform they have will use Instagram for as an example. They’re not in the comments raising their hand saying you’re talking directly to me. So then what happens? It makes me not want to post on Instagram as much. It makes me want to explore other opportunities, quote, unquote, into my air quotes, I’ve got your photo that makes me want to strategy hot, right? So this week, I’m doing tiny offers next week, I’m doing high ticket. The following week, I’m exploring a membership. I’m rebranding every quarter, I’m sending emails to people who won’t email me back, like what in the world am I doing yet. And still, I’m watching people that I can sort of poke competition, show their income reports and talk about how they had a five figure launch and all of these things. So then it makes me look like, clearly I’m doing something. Clearly, there’s something wrong with me, clearly, there’s something wrong with my offer. And that’s usually not the case. Most of the time, it’s the fact that you are not speaking your dream clients language, you’re not connecting with them. And so you’re more so attracting people who don’t find your offer valuable, therefore, your fantasy thinking that your offer is not valuable, which is never, ever, ever the case. So that’s what I do is I hope that those parts together in a clear and streamlined customer journey, I help you attract and convert your dream clients so that you can build a business that you actually love to work in, who doesn’t want to work with people that they love, like, who wants to work with people, you know, you get that first sales notification or someone gets in your DMS and they buy your thing. And you’re like, I just don’t want to talk to them. Like, how can I make it so that I can just send them an email and they don’t have to be my coaching? You know, you start kind of thinking those types of things move. But I believe that, hey, you’ve got to get you’ve got a unique offer a unique solution to somebody’s problem. And you deserve to build a business with a loyal, raving fan base of people who are just like, when’s the next opportunity that I can give you money? How can I pay? That’s the thing. So that’s what I help people do on a day to day basis. Melissa Guller 9:36 Yeah, I love that. And something else that you talk about, which I love is this concept of finding your secret sauce. So can you tell us a little bit more about that? Desola Davis 9:44 Absolutely. Your secret sauce is the most undervalued asset in your business, by far. Why? Because it is the thing that using and we again, this conversation right before the podcast started. is the thing that you think that it’s normal, I normally do it, therefore I shouldn’t be paid for it. But it’s the exact thing that’s going to cause somebody to look for you. So anybody, I shouldn’t say anybody that kind of demeaning, maybe not that many people can help you grow your Instagram. But there’s only one person that’s going to do it in a way that you’re going to value. And there’s some way that they do it. There’s a personality that they bring to and there’s an experience that they’ve had, that allows them to deliver that offer, deliver that transformation in a certain way that attracts a certain kind of people. And so knowing what your secret sauce is the fundamental thing that you need to start attracting the people who value it so that you never have to argue in the DMs or argue in the comments about whether or not your offer is valuable enough. You never have to feel like you need one more program. One more course, one more certification in order to make your offer feel valuable, because you’re already attracting people who know that they can do it on their own. They’re feeling that powerlessness that we were talking about the problem, and they’re waiting for someone like you to give them the tools that gives them that transformation that they are so knowing what your secret sauce is that thing that you do innately. The reason that you went into business to begin with the reason you identified a gap in your industry. And tying that into your message is the first way or the best way to start attracting the right clients. Melissa Guller 11:26 Yeah, I think that’s so important. And I know a lot of podcasters worry about competition. And we see like other shows out there doing the exact thing we wanted to do. And it stresses us out or prevents us from starting and maybe what advice would you give to somebody who’s feeling like that way that their podcast topic or their business idea has already been done before? Desola Davis 11:45 Yes, I love this so much. I gave a talk a couple of months ago. And that’s one of the mottos that I stand by. And when I say it’s everybody uncomfortable, so lean in over listening, pause, so you can lean and be friends you meeting in competition doesn’t matter. Period, let that land for a second. Competition does not matter. Why? Because your story is unique. It’s as unique as your fingerprint, right? People are going to connect with you, because of your story, because of your experiences. And because of your perspective. And again, it’s so funny that we’re talking about this now that we’re recording, because we just had this conversation about how, you know, you read so many books, and they give you so much insight and it gives you so much perspective on what to do and how to vote yourself. But once you look at it, once you’re reading several different books on the same topic, you realize that the advice is the same because there’s nothing new under the sun, what’s different is their perspective, what’s different is them boldly sharing what they’re for. And so for you as a podcaster, if you are brave enough, first of all, to put together a podcast that’s going to go out to hundreds 1000s millions of people don’t think about those people as as body. These are the people that you’re touching. And so if you’re worried about what your competition is doing, again, you’re going to take the focus off of the problem that you are solving. And so even though people are on fire, people are drowning, you’re worried about how you look instead of how you can help them. And so do not think about competition, because it really doesn’t matter. Your raving fan base, your loyal, loyal podcast fan base is waiting for your next episode to drop. They’re waiting for your next, the next problem you’re going to talk about, you’re waiting to hear your opinion on whatever it is you do. So get out of your own way, and serve the people that you serve. Melissa Guller 13:49 All I can say is preach. I feel like people should listen to that again and again. It’s hard, it’s probably uncomfortable to hear. Competition doesn’t matter. But I’m just loving all of this. So we can’t say it better. Desola Davis 14:05 Yeah, I’m telling you. I have found that thinking about competition, analysis paralysis, imposter syndrome, like whatever that is. It only affects people who actually want to help people. People who are out for themselves never thinks these things, which is ridiculous to me. And that’s one of the things I was talking to my husband about this too. Let you get out of your own way. And you make it about the people that are waiting on you. You start getting stories from people. I got a message from a former client who was in my coaching program about how she’s just relaunched her framework, and it’s beautiful. This was from a program that I wasn’t even going to launch last November. And now I have all of these transformational stories of people who have been able to find their secret sauce, their own customer journey, and now they know how to make better business decisions. So what is on the other side of you pushing publish on that episode, that’s on the other side of you just finally sending that, you know, posting that hiji post what is on the other side of you finally, giving your opinion on one problem that you’ve been thinking around? Whose problem is on the other side of that, when you stop making it about you, you’re able to step over into what you can call to, and you’re able to start helping more people in your actual change in your people that are listening to you. Melissa Guller 15:31 And even a small takeaway I’m having from this is that you can think of each job as a problem, a mini problem that you’re solving for somebody. Right? And so I think we don’t always think about that we’re thinking about, you know, things that we’re interested in. And that’s valid, too. But if you imagine delivering an episode that perfectly hits on the pain point your listeners having right now, that’s going to build so much trust with them. Desola Davis 15:55 Yes, absolutely. Because what do you want them to do? You want them to come back next week to you know, two days from now, tomorrow? What however, often you’re dropping your episodes, and you want them to be like you want them to say, I wonder what Melissa? You know, you want them to send you an email saying, Hey, can you talk about this in your, in your future podcasts, you have so and so on your on your podcast or something, because I want to hear your take on why? And that goes back to the customer during the way I teach it. At the very end of the customer journey, there are five stages of the customer journey. And what you’re really wanting is to be as a thought leader. And what is a thought leader was somebody who’s able to change people’s perceptions? cause people to take action based on your courts? Where are you sharing your words on your podcast? So if you created this, why did you create this podcast? Like who wants to do this, like, their opinions and things like that into the ether only for no one to listen, that’s crap. It takes a long time and a lot of effort to put together a good podcast. So if you want people to take action, if you really want them to be that thought leader, it’s exactly what you said, Melissa, you have to think of each episode as a problem that you’re solving. And you have to be true to your audience and understand what they need from you, in order to take the action that you know will make them better. Melissa Guller 17:13 Speaking of what they need from us, I think that’s a great segue into talking about your framework those strangers to fans framework. So can you walk us through what those five phases are big-picture? Desola Davis 17:23 Absolutely, yeah. So big picture. So first, you start in training of stranger to fan, the five stages of customer journey, they start out as a stranger, if you’ve never heard from me, before, we are strangers to one another. This is the first time that you if you decide that you want to come into my community, find me on Instagram at this holiday, this made you decide to follow me. Now you’re a part of my audience, maybe you click into my email and you sign up for one of my resources. You join my email list. Now you’re part of my audience. as an audience member, we’re casually talking to each other. But you’re not really interested in getting to know me, right? Like, we’re just we’re kind of friends, friends on Facebook, Twitter. But then you can move down that line into a prospect and as a prospect. Now you’re seriously considering me as an option to solve your problem. I’m one of maybe three to five final contestants as to whether or not you’re going to work with me, you’re paying more attention to everything that I’m saying. You’re watching all of my stories, you’re reading every word in my captions, you are reading every word in my email, maybe you ventured out and like emailed me back to ask me a question just to see if I’m cool. If you’re listening to every podcast episode that drops that has me because you’re trying to make sure that moving forward with me as in alignment with your values, and what you looking for when it comes to solutions. And then you become my customer, you know, you jump into my launch event or something like that, or I send you a link to a webinar or something. And you really resonate with me and you decide to invest. My offer then becomes your solution. And we’ve worked together to solve that problem. A lot of times people think that the sales funnel, exactly what I just talked about from stranger to customer is all you have to do. But the best way to grow your raving fan base is to take it a step further. And what does he mean after they become your customer and you join forces with them to solve their books, invite them to become an ambassador by them to become what I call a fan. And they said, Who’s invested in seeing your business grow so that you can help more people? And these people don’t have to be paid affiliate commission which commission is fantastic. They don’t need any additional incentive, because sharing you with other people is just the right thing to do. I don’t need affiliate commission to tell people when they go to Starbucks, they need to get it for Noah sweeping. I mean, like I don’t need to. Starbucks doesn’t need to pay me a coin for me to tell them that when Christmas rolls around, probably latte is all you need to get. So when you become the right thing to do, and you have a fan who’s invested in growing your business, you can invite them to show Many other opportunities to partner with you, people just like them. Or you can invite them to another opportunity to solve another together. And when you’re inviting them, you don’t have to do a lot of dating, to get them to work with you again, right? Because as a prospect, they’re asking all these questions. Now as a, you know, as an ambassador, you can just point back to, hey, we did this together, do you want to do this together now. And so making that second sale, making that next sale, just, it’s so much easier, and it’s so much more authentic, and it’s so much more natural for you. And so when I think about that, even as a podcast host, I think about how they may affect your podcast by searching for something that your podcast. So they may find your Wit & Wire because you talk about how to grow your podcast and that kind of thing. And then so they come into your audience, maybe they’ve listened to a couple episodes, and they hit subscribe. And then you invite them to download a checklist or something like that, so that they can start thinking about your own podcast, and you start sending them emails that really resonate with that. They’re looking at your Instagram and all of that. And then they see that you’re inviting all these like mom, guests like this holiday this onto your show, right? And so a prospect when you’re like, Okay, I’m opening up my program, and I want to help help you grow your podcast, Will you come with me? Will you join me in this launch event, they come with a launch event? Desola Davis 21:25 And this podcasting doesn’t seem so overwhelming anymore. So I want that. I want to get my message out there. So what do we need to do? Melissa says, Well, if you want to become my customer, this is what a solution looks like. Once they come into your program, and you’re building your podcasts, and you’re getting all these big get accepted by just like getting into Harvard at this point, they get accepted by Apple, and like all of these things are happening. Like what are you to remember when you know, you sent me a DM and you know, all you had was an idea. And now you have a full fledged podcast, you’re about to do your launch up on launch weekend, you have 100 downloads 100 downloads of your podcast and what that means it’s been listened to 100 times in one week. How fantastic is that? Now, when it’s time for you to reopen your program, or when someone else was like, Man, I’m looking, I’m looking to like grow my podcasts or, you know, all these people are getting these products and stuff like that, and I’m thinking about it, what’s your customer going to say? Hey, have you checked it out with wire? Here’s the link, thanking me later. And that’s what you want, right? As a podcaster. As you’re saving those many problems, you’re gaining trust. And so when you invite them to continue to work with you, and you asked for sale, it’s going to be easy, because why we already have a relationship, you’ve already been in money or which is one of the most intimate moments like it’s been me and you for how long. And now you’re asking me to you’re inviting me into the sale, you get the sale, I get the transformation. And now you’re asking me to, you know, share the same feeling with other people and say, heck yes, for me every time. And that’s how I become your fan. And that’s how I’m able to bring more people into your program more people into your community, get more people listening to your podcast. But a lot of times people don’t put in any effort between that customer stage and the fan stage. They think once they had customer, let’s go back and third the funnel, which is way more effort, time and way less ROI, than building on the relationship that you’ve already worked so hard to get. Melissa Guller 23:33 Yeah, I have to say I love this framework, because I have a real pet peeve with a lot of the online business world where I feel like there are some amazing salespeople. And then once you buy that program, or you enroll it or you realize that that’s where they stopped putting in effort. And that the thing that you’ve bought, they were amazing at explaining, but unfortunately, they can’t actually deliver to the customer that they booked. And it really drives me nuts because I am a course creator and I’ve seen the power of the transformation that online courses and great services can provide. And if you switch from how do I get more sales to? How do I find more happy customers? How do I get people to know that they want and you shift your mindset in that way. I just feel like it makes such a huge difference. Desola Davis 24:22 They come out the woodworks, and that’s the thing like for me, it shouldn’t be so much effort to convince anybody to need your product. That’s the other thing. They don’t need your product. But if you’re speaking their language, they can’t help like the hands just gonna go meet. You’re talking to me. I’m some people. Many entrepreneurs ask me, how do you make it so that I don’t have this problem? out of the Woodworks themselves they self select for themselves, and then they help out like even when you’re not asking. I can’t tell you how many times people keep repeating my mom. My mom and dad in a podcast interview but this Gonna make so much money? You know, she follows me on Instagram. So she controlled me and also encouraged me, I shouldn’t say that. She also encouraged me. But she says, there’s all these people that can be hosting your business, like, Who are these people? I don’t know. But they love working with me. So they keep telling me, and it’s not because they get, you know, I don’t pay them to do it, they do it because I come to mind because someone said something. And they thought about a problem, they go facility, because this is the person you need to follow for that, or this is the person you need to talk to for that. So I mean, really, when you stop thinking about how many sales, you start thinking about the reason you started business, I mean, in addition to financial freedom, a little things is how many problems you can solve and how many lives can change. With your unique gift and your unique offer. You’re even for them to sell your thing. You’re right, like a lot of people, especially in the online industry, they’re really great salespeople, and part of the reason I have this business, I am a product of bad delivery, I was that customer without a journey. I was that customer who got left with a login and a password. For something that was supposed to transform my business. I was one, almost $10,000 in the hole, trying to find answers that I wasn’t getting lots of resources, no real answers. Instead of getting a desk with a manual, I got a whole bunch of wood with a document that I could not understand. And when I went back to the IKEA to give it back, I was told, due to the nature of the digital product. no refunds will be given at this time, to me. And it’s so funny, because every time I tell that story, people were like, that was that was me. That was me. And somewhere along the line, people thought that this was this was okay, this is just the nature of the industry that we’re in. And so instead of taking that instead of just kind of, Alright, fine. That’s how it goes, I got mad, why? Because I was working out where am I going, but I was working at the time. And so you’re telling me I’m investing my degree. But I could have used to buy several things to take myself on summer vacation, at least go to the spa. This is something that’s not working for me. And now I still have the courage to go out and look for someone else to solve my problem. Not so much said that. So we’re not going to do that. And so since then, it’s really been my mission to share with people, first of all, trying to do it, right. showing them that it can be as simple like experience, and it can be so much more fulfilled in your business, being the people that are looking for you the whole time, and also serve as an insult to people who think that it’s okay to just teach you how to make sales instead of how to help them that that’s not going to be okay. I still have breath in my lungs. Sunshine attitude, bubbly personality. I was thinking about this every time that I’m allowed. Melissa Guller 27:50 As you should. Well, speaking of raising your voice. I do think that segues nicely into talking about podcasting. So we’ve talked about this strangers to fans framework, where does a podcast fit into that experience? Desola Davis 28:05 Wait, great question. So when you think podcasts, especially a lot of podcasters, that isn’t the whole business, they have other offers that they want to share. So you think about your podcast, think about your podcast, from his perspective, as well as an audience member, strangers, big question is, do you care? Should we both be in this type of thing? Do you even care that I care about the things that matter to me and things like that, and that’s going to come out in your browser that’s going to come out and the values that you share, it’s not even so much in what you’re talking about, it’s going to come out and how you’re talking about the stories that you’re sharing what’s going to come out in the people that you have, and what you agree with, versus what you disagree with, and things like that. So I mean, one of the things that’s really important to me is my face. So if that puts you off, then you’re gonna really enjoy readings and errors, maybe that’s ingrained in me and the way that I speak. Right? So whether or not you believe in God, if you’re able to take the values that I’m trying to share through some stories from nothing. And also if you like funny jokes and people awkward and stuff like that, you’ll love me because I do that too. But that’s that’s what it is carry, and then from the audience member, they want to know. Do you understand my problem? That’s it. It’s actually not very high. It’s, do you understand it? And one of the way you actually distinguish yourself as a podcaster is not only to understand it, do exactly what I did at the top of this podcast is reframing. I understand your problem. And yes, I can mirror it to you but what good is it for me to commiserate with you about how I don’t tell you that it can’t be solved, and at least give you just show you the light at the end of the tunnel to show you how simple it is to solve. So as you’re talking and you’re solving those many problems with each episode, you’re going to show them that you understand the problem. And then you’re going to read it in a way that shows them what a solution. Right, so not saying, give them all of your IP. So free on your podcast, I am saying, show them that the problem can be solved. So you know what that looks like, could be something earlier this week, today, but about three problems that I believe are having, you know, I described the problem, I should describe how they do. And they also say, in order to solve this problem, this is what you mean, and tell you what you mean. So if you want more information, I can then give you a patient to join, to come a little bit closer into my audience, right ask you to download a resource I can, I can refer you to another podcast episode, and give you just little things that that allow you to see that type of solution as possible. And then, after the podcast, as you use that podcast, you can use it as a way to get people to self select, based on the problems that you’re showing children, peeking behind the curtains as to what the solution will look like them, and how to have them self select and say, hey, it’s easy to find out more curated, dig deep, a little bit more into that solution. That’s when you offer that first quick win, which is maybe a resource that solves one problem or so step one of your framework. And then once you’ve captured the email, lead them down a customer journey that ends with your product, and think about how you’re going to use that product to create an exam. So podcast is deadly stranger and the audience, do you care? Do you understand my product? Also understand that whatever episode you’re promoting, or you’re putting for next resource needs to make sense for the type of transformation. Melissa Guller 31:59 And obvious as this is, you do need to offer something else in the episode. Because I think that’s something I’ve known a lot of hosts are missing. Even if you don’t know exactly what we’re going to call, maybe you’re newer in business, maybe you’re just kind of using your patches of stuff, you can still have a freebie, you can still have them. That is the next thing that they can do. Because otherwise I feel like miss out on an opportunity to move them through the strangers emerging market and get them into that next phase. Desola Davis 32:28 Yeah, you’re just gonna be friends that each other a party sometimes for a long time, you’re just waiting. Yeah, if you don’t give them a place to go to tell them exactly. That’s one of the things about business and touching, running my own business and things like to tell them what to do, they’re not going to do anything. So there’s going to be a great episode, they may take notes, but they’re not going to do anything. And unfortunately, even with the profile, or even with the solutions that you provide on that podcast episode, they’re not going to do anything that you didn’t give them a resource to continue the conversation. You didn’t give them the resource to keep the problem kind of at the at the forefront to say, hey, think about something about this problem. Just know I’m in joy, my solution, whatever, whether it’s you or someone else, just know I’m believing. You’re right, absolutely. Give them a freebie. Can I have a freebie yet, if you’re somebody who’s built for connection, me, invite them to a monthly meetup, so that you can continue that relationship with them so that when you do have something to sell, you don’t have to be interested. They know who you are, you can actually start doing some pre sales, which is that’s what I do with my program. I didn’t have a podcast yet. But it was easy for my fan base that I’ve been cultivating and say, Hey, I’m thinking about doing a group program. Because I know a lot of the afford the one to one. That’s okay. I want to help as many people as I keep thinking, What do you think, and I, I filled my waitlist totally within the first two days ago, because I had already built that, that trust I’d already been shipped. So send me a small like I said, as a monthly meetup. You have 60 minutes, every 30 to 31 day. By the time I have something to sell, you won’t be selling to strangers, people. Melissa Guller 34:19 I love that you mentioned that it doesn’t have to be a freebie because as much as that’s a great approach, this meetup idea, I think such a great tip. Even if you’re a community builder, and you want to have a free Facebook group, if you purchased just having like a place where your people can go. Desola Davis 34:35 Yes, absolutely, it’s not. And if it’s something like, you know, sharing five extra minutes of an episode that you did just like a bonus or something like that. In exchange for emails, you’re already sitting in front of the mic, there’s five more minutes, give them some type of action they can take and share that with them. turn that into some type of downloadable, into a Google doc or It’s, you know, a checklist or something like that. Don’t overthink, it doesn’t have to be complicated to be valuable. Oh, no, they’re here for the transformation. However, take it, because anything is better than sitting with a problem. Melissa Guller 35:16 Well said. Well, podcasting is basically just one of many ways to build an audience. But something I talk about a lot. And we’ve done, the fact that I don’t think having 1000s of downloads are nearly as important as having the right listeners. So what are some of these ways podcasters could identify who their right listener as we were talking about before with the DMs, and it’s not the offer, how can we avoid it? Desola Davis 35:43 It really kind of goes back to the secret sauce thing that we were talking about earlier. And it’s something that my workbook has shown to syndrome clients, those with questions, it’s, and the first question is not even about the client, about you. Because if you know who you are, you understand what makes you and your offer your perspective. Like why do you think that you needed to lend your voice into the podcast, if you were able to bring wash the ball to be the one controlling idea that you would want everybody to know that you have something unique to offer. And if I tell you any different competition, doesn’t matter, all of that. And we are raving fan base that is eagerly waiting to pull you over. So what is that controlling idea? And so when thinking about your ideal client, it’s really just looking at controlling it and going, who needs to know who then you think about the profile of somebody who needs to know that? What kind of things are, right? So like, for me, again, it’s a process, it’s the imposter syndrome. And sometimes they don’t, you know, we don’t click syndrome. It’s just, something’s not clicking. So you’re not, you’re not attracting the right clients, and you don’t know what it is, but it’s not clicking. Whatever. So you ever that controlling? Think back to the other people that you’ve showed that controlling idea with where you had a podcast? What’s it? What’s it, like those types of people that give you head nods versus the people that were Oh, that’s cute. That’s great. I’m just gonna keep going. forget those people. people that were giving you had not done that resonated with them. What did they say? That means call me back through your Id call me back through your DMs and stuff like? What was what? What is the key thread that runs on people that are just like, religiously head nodding, whether it’s consistently and asking you to talk about it? And then finally, how does that offer offer? And it’s based on the way it’s packaged your unique sauce, and admissions they offer? Because we’re talking about podcasts, but it’s the same? How does that podcast sound? It’s the way it’s packaged. It’s the way that you present information. It’s what you do. There’s some people who like big, big stocks, because it’s very important to them to have the right to after doing research and all that to provide to their audience. For some people, it’s stories, they need to have the right story that connects with that, that shows the audience member that allows them to see themselves in those types of way to remain. Those are two that you’re gonna listen to, right. There’s some people who love numbers, facts and figures and want to know, I like them for me and teach me and stuff like that. There’s some people to be entertaining, right? So all of those numbers, are you solving that problem? So when you’re thinking about your ideal client, or your ideal listener, your ideal audience member is all of that goes into it, what he’s been looking for what I prefer, the way I offer it right now, say some coach told me that the way somebody else told me I needed to do it, that’s not the way some strategy that other people have followed. But the way that I want to put this material was, I want to show this podcast, who would love that? And that’s where we get started. Melissa Guller 39:25 And for people who are worried that I’ve had too many different audiences, or I have many special snowflakes who want to hear me, what would you say about that? Because I do think it’s a concern like, oh, if I go to specific, I’m really limiting my growth potential. Desola Davis 39:41 That’s that’s interesting that you say that what I was saying to them, the snowflakes that you want to serve, has said thank you with great notes and appreciation, because at snowflake it that you’re looking for a way right and not asking you to miss lectures now this like Final we’ll talk about, but it’s not even so much niche down to your unique contribution to finish and double down on that. Because even if you’re attracting a certain kind of person, a certain kind of pain member or whatever, people who resonate values for the very first question is do you care? And just because you care, not necessarily because of the way that you presented your offer, there are people who worked with me inside of my program. And literally, I had an onboarding. I did you choose now to jump in on this program? Why did you choose to work on new customer learning at this time, and they said, because you said, that was it, I didn’t, I didn’t know that this was trendy to be in your space. And because you said to sign up, I don’t know podcasts that I listen to. And I know nothing about the industry, but I love, I love their stories, and I’m able to come up with whatever it is I’m doing. And I was listened to them, because I trust them, and I want it to be for you. But if you’re worried about swimming all in the snowflakes at the time, you know that you know, famous adage, if you’re talking to everyone, you’re talking to one, that’s what’s going to happen. Take a look at your podcast downloads to actually seems an upward trajectory or if you’re a plateau and because you’re trying to because the minute you start talking to this person with a problem that you actually saw that you slip it, you’ll start seeing an uptick in the way that you join my clients. That’s one of the things we talked about on this podcast, the minute she knew she was talking to you. And the solution with that podcast saw a 30% increase in podcast downloads. That’s amazing. It’s so great talk to one point, I’ll talk to one person about the problem that he has. And again, think about it. Even though you want just 1000 you’re only talking to one person I’ve only talked to one person decided at that time that they’re listening, it was worth it. So while and be courageous enough to offer your take on that solution. Finally, saying, Hi, I’m looking for someone to talk to me about the way that you’ve talked. So now, now I’m going to download the next episode. That’s what you’re looking for, that trust. Melissa Guller 42:54 And as we wrap up, speaking of podcasting I know you are about to launch your own show and I think it’ll be live by the time this episode goes live so I’d love to know, why did you decide to start a podcast. Desola Davis 43:05 I did because I love the opportunity to encourage people that really was the very first thing is to show people that learning to serve your clients wanting to serve your audience wanting to serve the people. Is not this complicated thing. It’s not this secret behind this seven figure guru door. It’s something that’s available to you at whatever stage you are, I truly believe that the minute you decide that you want to work, or start a business grow business whatever you’re an expert. And so I just want to give them. I want to give my listeners the opportunity to realize that like what you have is uniquely valuable. You don’t need a certificate, you don’t need any of these other things that people tell you that you need. What you need is to figure out what tools will get you the transformation that you’re trying to offer other people. Right, you need to think differently about your business you need, you need to take ownership, you need to be leader, and I wanted an opportunity to talk about the unsexy things like having a vision, leading a team and all of these things that I’ve learned in the 10 plus years of corporate experience. And just to connect with my coach and find my own fans really, the name of the name of podcasts incidentally his journey to fans because I believe that everybody has a raving fan base, and I can’t wait to connect with people on. Melissa Guller 44:30 Well, based on this episode alone and all the many things I’ve been just about you to prep for this I know I can’t wait to be one of your very earliest podcasts, so I get them to tune in. Desola Davis 44:39 Thank you. So I so appreciate it so excited for it to be available to the world, you guys come on trip during independence find me on Instagram and let me know. Melissa Guller 44:50 Yeah, and before we go I know you have a great free resource. You mentioned it earlier called the Strangers to Dream Clients Workbook, and you can find it at witandwire.com/desola. But can you tell us a little bit more about it? Desola Davis 45:03 Yes, absolutely. It is all about the framework that we’ve been talking about this whole episode but it also gives you a chance to find your secret sauce for yourself, to start thinking about your own customer journey, and thinking about who you want to invite to your loyal raving fan base. So, depending on where you are in your customer journey, it can help you solve all of those problems along the way, it’s interactive, it is a labor of love, as a 24 page, wonderful resource that will keep you thinking and give you great ideas to grow your business and attract the right fit. Melissa Guller 45:35 Yes, this is not a light little PDF. I would definitely recommend it, and there’s a lot of really thought provoking questions in there. So again, the URL is witandwire.com/desola for the Strangers to Dream Clients Workbook. Well, this has been such a pleasure. I’m really feeling inspired by all of this positivity. As we wrap up, just anything else you want to share with our audience? Desola Davis 46:00 Absolutely. One more time…you are a genius, whatever you do. You are a genius. You are so neat and you are so important. If you were not needed. If you look at your competition, and you thought that they were somehow saying rageous think about the fact that they haven’t gotten the business, which means all of these problems have not been solved yet, so better than you to step up and finally solve somebody’s problem, and give them their power back so go out and do it, solve problems, one podcast episode at a time, and impact your community. Melissa Guller 47:02 Thank you so much for joining us this week! To catch up on all of the articles referenced in today’s episode, or to see my full list of recommended podcast hosting platforms for any budget, visit the complete show notes at witandwire.com/34. At Wit & Wire, we help online business owners start podcasting so they can share their message and expertise with a wider audience, and if you’re interested to learn more about our programs and services, you’ll find everything on our website at witandwire.com. Thank you again for joining me, Melissa Guller, in this episode of the Wit & Wire podcast. I’ll see you next time!