Wondering which tools we recommend to create & sell online courses?

Download our free Course Creation Toolkit, which includes our recommended online course platforms, video recording tools, and equipment to build a profitable online course business. (Includes a full course platform comparison.)

Download the toolkit

Trademarks and must-have podcasting contracts (Andrea Sager, Legalpreneur)

June 17, 2020


Melissa Guller


Transparency Disclaimer: This post may contain affiliate links, which means that we may earn a commission if you make a purchase. This is at no additional cost to you, so it's a great way to support Wit & Wire. So thank you! Full disclosure here.

Is your podcast protected? When I first launched, my answer was “definitely not.” 

In this episode, fellow podcaster and small-business lawyer Andrea Sager shares the right time to trademark and the three must-have podcasting contracts. In other words, here’s what you can do ASAP to protect your business and podcast.

Apple Podcasts   |   Spotify   |   Google Podcasts  |  Overcast  |  RSS

Meet Andrea Sager

After spending just 7 months at a large law firm, Andrea quickly found out “Big Law” was not the place for her. She was told from the beginning that small businesses were not “quality clients.” As a former small business owner herself, Andrea knew that was not true. It was that defining moment that made Andrea want nothing more than to fill the gap between small businesses and affordable legal services.

In just one year, Andrea has become the GO-TO attorney for small businesses. Affordable flat rates and payment plans are what attract so many small businesses to Andrea, whether they’re looking for trademarks, copyrights, or other business services.

Website | Podcast | Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest

Episode transcript

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by a free AI transcription tool called Otter. Please forgive any typos or errors. Announcer 0:02 Welcome to Wit & Wire, the podcast that takes you behind-the-scenes with podcasters and industry experts to help you start and scale a binge-worthy podcast of your own. Here’s your host, Melissa Guller. Melissa Guller 0:19 Hey everyone, I’m Melissa and today we’re talking about must have podcast contracts and trademark advice with lawyer and serial entrepreneur Andrea Sager. After spending just seven months at a large law firm, Andrea quickly found out that big law was not the place for her. She was told from the beginning that small businesses were not quality clients. And as a former small business owner herself, Andrea knew that was just not true. It was that defining moment that made Andrea want nothing more than to fill the gap between small businesses and affordable legal services. In just one year, Andrea has become the go to attorney for Small businesses, affordable flat rates and payment plans are what attract so many small businesses to Andrea, whether they’re looking for trademarks, copyrights, or other business services. I can’t wait to dive into podcast contracts and trademarks. But please note that the information in this episode is not legal advice. This is for informational purposes only. So please consult with your attorney before implementing any strategies discussed. Now, let’s say hello. So Andrea, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to, of course, get into all things contracts and legal but before we get into the good stuff, I do want to learn a little bit more about you. So I know you’ve had experience running multiple businesses. So can you take us back to the beginning of your journey as an entrepreneur and just tell us how you got started? Andrea Sager 1:51 Yes, so great question. I actually started my first business while I was in law school, which is pretty crazy. Now. I didn’t have enough to do. But quite frankly I made pretty good money while I was in college. I did. I was in the army. So I did ROTC, and I just had tons of disposable income. When I was in college. I didn’t have to live the poor college student life. But then when I got to law school, I couldn’t make any money. So I was living the poor law school student life. And I was just looking for really any, any way to make money. And when I was in college, I spent a lot of my money on clothes. So once I got to law school, I started hearing about poshmark. And at that point, I was like, Okay, okay, let me try to sell some of these clothes on poshmark which I did and then I kept growing and growing on poshmark so I started selling on poshmark just selling clothes out of my closet, and then I started thrifting before I knew that was really a thing to go to the thrift store, buy clothes and resell them. So I started doing that and then I started seeing people. People, you know, Buy Wholesale and then sell brand new boutique clothing. I was like, Oh, I want to do that. So I started doing that. And that really just blew up. And I opened, you know, I had then I started my own website, we opened a brick and mortar store. So we grew pretty quickly with that. And then when I graduated from law school, I actually I, you know, I had a big firm job, I thought I was set for life. You know, in my head, I was like, Okay, I will just work at the firm, and I’ll have somebody run the store for me, which would have been a great plan, but I wasn’t a great but I, I just didn’t plan it the right way. And I didn’t do a great job of actually running that business. So I got burned out. I was doing way too much. And I sold that and I hated my law firm. I hated the law firm life. So I went out and launched my own firm. started serving small business owners because I started with that clothing store, I had a ton of other clothing stores reach out for help with trademarks and copyrights. And I would try to bring them on to the firm and they didn’t want it. They didn’t want what they considered a not so quality client. And even though these clothing store owners, I mean, they were making multiple six figures, but the firm didn’t see them as quality clients, so they didn’t want them. And that’s where I was, you know, saw that whole I saw that gap in the market and I realized, okay, well I can actually go out and serve those small business owners. Of course, as scary as it can be, start going out on your own. You know, I was making six figures as a first year attorney, and at the time my husband was actually staying home with our son. So I was the only one bringing in money. And it was scary as can be. But luckily I have made it work and I’ve been so honored to be able to serve so many small business owners over the past two years. And I’m just really excited. And I’m, I’m just extremely happy that I get to wake up every day and serve small business owners because we’re all in the same boat. We’re all trying to make it and we’re there, a lot of us are out here killing it now. Melissa Guller 5:13 So true and it is tough. It’s interesting to hear you talk about the journey from this very stable job to having your own business because I think all of us have this moment of like, Am I really gonna do it? There’s this I’m on the edge of the cliff moment, I think for anybody who starts up their own business. And it sounds like for you, it’s, you know, really started to pay off for you. And before we talk, talk shop, what does your business look like today? Andrea Sager 5:38 We actually had like a complete life transformation. When I started the firm. We were living in Cincinnati at the time, right outside actually in Kentucky. And we moved across the country to Texas, which is where I’m from and where my family is. So we did the big move. My husband started teaching and I started my own firm. So we had a huge life change and I was a complete solo. And then I hired my paralegal after about eight months in, and then I hired an assistant, a few about a year in. And then I hired an associate from another attorney last August. And I just hired somebody else. Actually, she’s more of a. I like to call her a trademark concierge because we have so many trademark clients that I just need somebody to make sure that we’re getting everything done for them. So yeah, it’s a team of five now and it’s beautiful. I love it. Melissa Guller 6:36 It’s so exciting. And congratulations on how your business has grown and I’m sure will only continue to grow and evolve moving forward because it’s no small feat to start a business so definitely something worth celebrating. Andrea Sager 6:48 Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it’s been a journey, but it’s really exciting. It’s a lot of fun. Melissa Guller 6:53 Yeah, well, speaking of excitement, probably something very exciting to you but very terrifying for a lot of my podcasters. I am Excited to get into two big topics today. So I first want to talk about trademarks. And then I definitely want to get into contracts. So let’s start with trademarks. I get this question all the time for my students do podcasters need to trademark their podcast name? Andrea Sager 7:17 Yes. Short answer is absolutely. And I almost cringe when I have people tell me Oh, I don’t need a trademark. I’m just a podcaster. It’s just a hobby. It’s a side thing for me. And it hurt like it. It takes everything in me not to just shake them and be like, no, but this is why so I Yes, absolutely. Podcasters need to have a federal trademark registration, or at the very least, at least do a very comprehensive trademark search to make sure you’re not infringing on anybody else’s trademark. And even if you’re not making money, you still have to be aware of trademarks. So I don’t know if you want to just dive into all that or if you want to ask any questions. Melissa Guller 8:06 No, that’s perfect. Let’s start with avoiding infringement. You brought that up. So what steps should podcasters first be taking to avoid infringement upon somebody else’s existing trademark? Andrea Sager 8:18 Yeah. So with trademarks, you really have to perform a comprehensive search. And this is much more than your simple Google search, your iTunes search, you know, wherever you search, it’s more than you searching, but you absolutely need to do the searching yourself. And the reason why you need a comprehensive search is because I and I get this all the time, like what you know, I’ve done my own search, I don’t need to do a search. Well, the thing is trademark infringement is not just when there’s the same exact name. Trademark Infringement occurs when there’s anything similar enough that it is likely To cause confusion with your consumers. Okay? What does that mean? Well, if I had to, I have the legal printer podcast, if there is any, maybe there’s a legal entrepreneur podcast. Well, that’s probably trademark infringement because my listeners are likely to be confused and think, Oh, is that Andrea, the legal entrepreneur, I thought she was the legal printer. Maybe she changed her name, something like that. So even if it’s similar, that could still be trademark infringement. It doesn’t have to be just the exact same name. And when you’re searching, typically you’re searching for the exact same name. There are endless possibilities on what could potentially be causing confusion. So you have to be checking for everything. And that’s where the comprehensive search comes in. Melissa Guller 9:51 a follow up question we talked about, okay, what if it’s not quite the same name, but there’s a similarity they could be mistaken for each other. What if there’s another person on a podcast that has the same name that you want, but it’s in a totally different topic or category. Andrea Sager 10:06 Yeah, so that’s definitely up for debate. There’s no yes or no, there’s no pretty answer to that one. And the reason being is because podcasting is still so new. And guess what the trademark office, they don’t necessarily know what to do. Because you and I find this coming up a lot. So when you go to file a trademark application, you have to declare your goods or services. And you have to be specific. Well, you know, 510 years ago, there weren’t nearly as many trademark applications or registrations because there weren’t as many online businesses. Now, the trademark office is forcing you to get more specific because you can’t just own all podcasts or all you know, coaching services for you know, business marketing. So the trademark office is starting to crack down to get people to be more specific So I don’t I can’t say with 100% certainty that yes, you’re fine if you have a podcast, if you have ABC podcasts on, you know, marketing, and the other person has ABC podcast on cleaning a home, that’s probably not trademark infringement. But I can’t say for sure, just because trademarks in regards to podcasting are still so new. But the thing is, it’s still trademark infringement if it’s definitely in the same category. So you want to avoid any potential confusion, and you want to make sure that you’re not leaving yourself to be completely removed for any podcast platform. Because the thing is, let’s say you have your podcast name, ABC, and the other person has a podcast name, ABC, you’re in two completely different subjects, but they have a trademark registration. Okay, what do they have to do? If they reach out to you and you ignore them? Well, if they have their registration, they can then petition iTunes or Apple and say, hey, look, this is trademark infringement. Here’s my trademark registration. And what will Apple do? They’ll just remove your podcast without any warning. Melissa Guller 12:14 We can’t have that. Wow. So it’s helpful to hear you walk through the implications. And I guess if I’m a new podcaster, and I am searching for a name, maybe they can’t do the comprehensive search. But what’s some advice that you would give somebody who’s trying to name their podcast? What should they avoid? Or what should they be doing? Andrea Sager 12:31 So there is there’s two, I’ve seen two different processes to naming a podcast number one search terms. And don’t get me wrong. There are generic terms. So in there, that means there are some that just cannot, they’re not eligible for trademark. So if you have a podcast called the Business Marketing podcast, well guess what, that probably can’t be protected with a trademark. So there can be you know, 20 different things. podcasters with that name. So if you’re going for generic search terms, that may not be a bad idea if that’s what you’re going for, just know that there will be other podcasters with that name. So it may be that nobody can own that name with the trademark. But if you want to go for the branding side, where I am so for me, I have the legal printer membership. My whole brand is the legal printer. So that’s what I wanted my podcast to be in that situation. Yes, I definitely make sure that there are no other podcasts out there with the same name or anything similar. Andrea Sager 13:37 And Andrea Sager 13:38 so I think there’s something similar out there, but they abandoned their podcasts. I mean, I think, several years ago, so yeah, that’s another thing, even if you’re searching and you see, okay, there’s a podcast with that name or something very similar. Are they still active or have they not posted for a year or two years? So there’s tons of different things you want to look for? When searching for the name, Hmm, Melissa Guller 14:02 That’s a really helpful tip. Because the truth is there are a lot of podcasts that were started in, like 2014. And they have only three episodes. So I think just to reiterate my understanding if a podcast exists like that, but they pretty clearly are not active. Is it okay to move forward with that name? Andrea Sager 14:21 So I can’t say 100%. Yes, but with the role of the trademark office, it’s pretty evident that they have completely abandoned it if they have not produced anything for three years. Now, if it’s been less than three years, then if you want to move forward with it, you just have to be prepared that you know, if they want to come back and say, Oh, no, we didn’t abandon it, then you have to be prepared to make that argument that yes, they did abandon it. Melissa Guller 14:48 Mm hmm. And I just have one more question about trademarks. What if my podcast name is different from my business name. Andrea Sager 14:56 So then you need multiple trademarks. So when We’re talking trademarks, think about all of your branding. So anything I like to tell people anything that has a unique name within your business that most likely can be protected with a trademark. So thank your brand name, your logo, your slogan, your podcast name, your course name. If you have the name of a service within your business, a service product line within your business, really just anything with a unique name that can be protected. So my business for example, my full name, full business name is Andrea Sager law. Well, Andrea Sager law is protected. Andrea Sager is protected. And within our business, we have the legal printer membership, and we have the legal printer podcast. So all of those things are also protected. Melissa Guller 15:51 I guess I do now have one more question because you mentioned your own name. should people be trademarking their name, if that is their business name? Andrea Sager 15:59 Yes. I am a firm believer that if you are conducting business with your legal name, you need to have a federal trademark. Think about Calvin Klein. He has, you know, he’s the namesake of the global fashion brand. Well, he’s no longer the CEO. He’s still involved with a business somewhat, but he’s not as involved as he was a long time ago. So Calvin Klein, his name has a federal trademark registration. If Calvin Klein 100% leaves his brand, Calvin Klein, he could not go out and start any brand named Calvin Klein, that is related to the fashion industry, and arguably, he may not be able to start any business with the name Calvin Klein. And there’s actually a lot of people in the fashion industry that have lost their rights and their name because of that, and that means they can no longer conduct business with their name, their legal name. Because they decided to be the face of their brand. And then you know, they get funding, they have the board of directors and the board decides to house them. Well guess what? They can no longer have a personal brand. They can’t conduct business with their name. And now they can’t do anything with their legal name. And I tell people look, just because you have a legal name, it doesn’t mean that you’re legal to conduct business with that name. Melissa Guller 17:25 That’s helpful. I have not heard that before. Maybe some people will give good advice. But now my final question on this. I know I said final before now I’ve got one more is when is it the right time to file a trademark? Andrea Sager 17:39 Great question. So I get this question all the time. If you’re a brand new business, and you don’t have unlimited funds, and you’re, you know, just testing the water, well, you probably don’t need to file for a federal trademark registration because number one, it’s a significant time and money investment. So you have to make sure that you have momentum before you’re investing that time and money. So I like to tell people, you know, if money is an issue, and you’re not sure that and you’re kind of just like testing this hobby business out, then don’t file because it could just end up being a waste of money. But you do want to make sure that you’re not infringing on anybody. So if you have to just do that comprehensive trademark search, and then when you have momentum in your business, and you know, okay, this is a thing like I’m, you know, I’m making good money. I know, I’m not just giving this thing up after a few months, then that’s when you want to protect your brand name with a federal trademark. Don’t wait until because I have so many people that wait and wait and they’re like, Oh, I’m gonna put it off. I’ll do it eventually. And then they find somebody infringing. And then like, Oh, my gosh, I need this. I need this file. Like I have to get this done ASAP. I’m like, Okay, well, we’ll get it done. But it’s going to take at least six to seven months to get approved and then they’re kicking themselves because They should have done it six or seven months ago, so that way they didn’t have to wait. But I like to say whenever you have momentum, and you know that your business is going to be around for a while, that’s when you should file. Mm hmm. That’s great advice. Melissa Guller 19:16 Now, let’s change gears and talk about contracts. So I think many podcasters may not have any contracts currently, if I were to guess. So what are the must have contracts for podcasters? And why are they so important? Andrea Sager 19:31 Yes, so great question. I see so many podcasters not protecting themselves. And the thing is, even if it’s just a hobby, you have to make sure that you’re protecting it because it’s your creation. You have to make sure that whatever you and I know, even if you’re just like, Hey, I’m just a hobby podcaster I’m just starting this on the side. We all know that you secretly hope this blows up to be like cereal. So if you really want to take your podcast to the next level and you want to make sure you’re protected. Then number one, if you have guests, you need to podcast guests consent. And this doesn’t have to be a full blown 10 page contract laying out this and that. Because most most of the time, I mean, it’s understood the general podcasting industry, you know, terms are understood, you know, you go on it you go on as a guest with, you know, so and so podcasts and you understand that they’re going to record everything you say, they’re going to repurpose it for, you know, social media. But you also want to make sure that you do put those terms down so I even used something simple with my calendly link. So if somebody goes to sign up to record an episode for me to interview them, I have terms there so it’s not like a full blown contract where they legit have to sign but I do have terms saying you know, I can use this for you know, in perpetuity I will not say Take it out of context. So I won’t make it look like you said something that you really didn’t. I have terms in there that say they, you know, everything they say will be recorded, and I will keep it in the podcast. But if somebody says, Hey, actually, can you take that out? Like, I’m not gonna, I’m not that type of person where I say, Nope, we recorded it. You didn’t say it was off the record. So I if somebody asked me to I will, especially because my podcast is about legal things. So there may be things that people really shouldn’t be saying. But, you know, just simple things like that. And I see some people try to require their guests to share it with their audience. And I actually don’t suggest putting that in the contract. Or, you know, wherever you have your terms, because some people are put off by that. I personally don’t require anybody to share on social media or share with their email list. Of course, you know, it’s great if they do, I asked them to, but they don’t have to. So Don’t I would not personally require it or put it in the contract. When I say podcast guests consent, you may not necessarily need a full blown contract, but you want to provide terms that the guest has to abide by or that they have to agree to. Now, other contracts, if you have a partner, if you have a co host 100%, you do need a contract with your co host. I have seen so many relationships go down south because there was no contract between the two co-hosts. So if you have a co host, you have to make sure okay, who actually owns this content? Do we own it? 5050 or did one person really start the podcast and you know, they’re just the co host and aren’t an owner in any of the content? What you know what happens then what happens when one person wants to take a break what happens? You know, there’s so many things that you have to account for that the co-host normally doesn’t think of, they’re just like, yeah, let’s start this podcast. Let’s start recording. So all those things you have to think about? And what about if you have ad revenue? How do you split the ad revenue there, there’s so many things that have to be covered in a co host agreement that people just don’t think about. Melissa Guller 23:15 Another big one is expenses, because I’ve had a co hosted show, which did work out really well. But we quickly realized that ownership was huge expenses that we didn’t think about. And then we figured out what we wanted to do in order to share the burden of revenue. Just getting it all in writing, like you’re saying is so critical, because you have no idea how the podcast is going to grow. You have no idea how the relationship is going to develop. So there are just so many unknowns, it’s better to be protected. Andrea Sager 23:42 Yes, 100%. Yes. And then one of the other big one that I highly suggest using is a producer agreement. So if you don’t produce your own podcast and you have a producer, you need to make sure they either if they don’t provide you with the agreement, you have to make sure that you provide them with an agreement. And you have to make sure that this agreement says, I own my content. You as the producer do not own the content unless you know a producer approaches you like, Hey, you want to be this host on this podcast, then perhaps they do actually own it. But those are all things that have to be worked out in the agreement. And you won’t believe how many people have come to me and said, Hey, I wanted to go with a new producer. But the producer, you know, said that he owns the content, he owns the podcast content. So what do I do now? So essentially, and it’s like, okay, there’s no agreement. So you’ll have to go to court, and, you know, do all these other things and spend a ton of money. So this one that’s coming to mind, she had a pretty successful podcast, and her producer said he owned it, but really, she was the one that started it. She approached him about producing her podcast after she had already had the podcast for a while. So there’s so many things that can happen. There are some producers out there that will seek out talent to be the host on the podcast, and the producer wants to host it. And that’s fine, but what’s not okay is you as the podcast host and the owner of the podcast, you approach a producer to help out and produce the podcasts. But then the producers like, Oh, yeah, I see this person isn’t very business savvy or whatever. So I’m gonna, you know, turn things around and say that I own it. And that happens. And I’m not gonna say it happens every day. But it happens. So you have to make sure that you are being protected, and you’re not leaving yourself vulnerable to having your content stolen from you. And it’s not just podcasters I mean, there’s horror stories like that with different artists as well like different musicians. So I mean, it’s all about the contracts and lining up who owns it, you know, What rights do all these people have? Melissa Guller 25:58 Yeah, this all makes so much sense and Contracts kind of remind me of umbrellas. Like if you don’t carry one around, Surely it’s going to rain that day. And you still have to own an umbrella. Andrea Sager 26:09 Right? And the thing is, I get it, you know, especially as a hobby podcaster or somebody with a very small business, I 100% understand, like, we’re bootstrapping. We don’t have tons of money to spend on this, you know, and then legal is just something in the background. And most people think of it, as you know, just something they’ll worry about if there’s an issue. But the thing is, you are less likely to have issues if you do the work upfront. So if you have that contract in place, if you have the trademarks up front, if you have everything done up front, you are less likely to have issues down the road, because you have those protections in place. Maybe somebody is searching for, you know your podcast name on the trademark database and they see they see Oh, this one is protected with a trademark okay. We can’t use that one that says that’s what it is. So you don’t realize that people are searching the trademark database. And because they see you on the trademark database, they’re not going to use that name. That’s, that’s where it happens. And the thing is when you see those people, or when there are those producers, and those people that don’t have good intentions, they see vulnerabilities when there’s no protections in place. So when there’s no contract, when there’s no trademarks, they see, okay, well, they haven’t done this. So I can go do that. And I can just tell them, oh, look, I did it. So I own it. And when that and that may not even be the way it works. But if you’re not in a position to fight back, then most of the time people just give up. Melissa Guller 27:45 Absolutely. Now, I do have one more question because I think a lot of podcasters also have something bigger going on by that. I mean, maybe they have a business or maybe they would like to one day have a business or they’re thinking about affiliate opportunities. Or maybe sponsorship one day? Do you have to say anything on air about affiliate products? And I asked because in the world of blogging, there are disclaimers you have to put on your site, and it has to be very visible. So what should podcasters be doing in the world of monetization? Andrea Sager 28:17 Yeah, great question. So when you do have your partnerships, you have your advertisements. You don’t have to say, Hey, this is an advertisement. But you’ll and I know people usually hear it slid in here. And they’re like, oh, I’ve partnered with so and so for this episode. Oh, this episode is brought to you by so many people. Those are the little words that trigger the sponsorship. It doesn’t have any media, every media platform is different. So blogging, you do want to have like, specifically, hey, this is this disclaimer. That’s what triggers the advertisement for blogging for podcasts. You just have to mention, oh, this is a partnership. This is an episode brought to you by so and so on Instagram, using a hashtag ad or at the beginning saying, you know, I’m partnering with this brand or I’m this brand is bringing you these products. So signaling that you’re in partnership with or you’re sponsored by, you don’t necessarily have to say this is an advertisement, you just have to find figure out what those magic words are for the specific platform to signal Hey, I’m not doing this out of the goodness of my heart, maybe you are, but you’re making money off of it. So you have to signal that you’re making money off of their purchase. Melissa Guller 29:35 Hmm, that makes sense. Now, before we start to wrap up, I do want to ask about your podcasts. So you’ve mentioned that you’re a podcaster as well. I’m curious to hear when you decided to start your own podcast? Andrea Sager 29:48 So I used to have an old podcast way back in the day when I did have the clothing store that was a very short lived podcast, but so I actually Attend podcast movement, I sponsor I speak. And I realized, okay, I really have to walk the walk and talk the talk. So I really need the podcast. And really, I just didn’t have the bandwidth for the, for the longest time to have a podcast. But now that I’ve been expanding my team, I have been able to create that bandwidth and 100% having a producer has made it so easy. So luckily, I I started my podcast in March, just a couple of months ago, but it’s been wildly successful and not and not even for me as for as much as like having thousands and thousands of downloads, but it’s crazy, just like how you quickly you know, you start a podcast and then more clients come your way is I mean, at least for me, I’ve had many more clients because of the podcast. Melissa Guller 30:52 Hmm, that’s helpful to hear. So do you think that those new clients they’re finding your podcast first, or how do you think it’s specifically bringing more clients to you Honestly, I think they’re Andrea Sager 31:02 finding them from the podcast, you know, I get some people to reach out. They’re like, Hey, I heard you on your podcast. I found you on your podcast and some of it. Well, you know, I did. I tried to do a big push with a lot of my entrepreneur friends when I launched and they gave me a shout out. So some people found it from that shout out. I don’t know if people are randomly finding it. But it’s been very helpful as far as bringing new business in and I don’t think I probably, I mean, I don’t know I say this now, but I in my head right now, I don’t intend on seeking sponsorships, just because I’m getting enough money from new clients. But I mean, you never know I, maybe one day I will have thousands of downloads every episode where somebody does want to sponsor but right now I’m just really happy that I do have the ROI as far as new clients come. Melissa Guller 31:55 Well, I’m happy to hear you say that because something I tried to share with more podcasters is that story. censorship is not the only way to earn money and that there are so many other opportunities, whether it’s just marketing your own business and the services that you sell or sharing that you have an Etsy store or whatever it is that you do. And there are also affiliate products that you can share. Like, for example, on one of my podcasts, we are a partner with Audible, and we didn’t have to be a big and fancy name to get approved as a partner in their program. But there are so many ways beyond sponsorship beyond 5000 downloads per episode. They can still help you bring money into your business. So I’m happy to hear that that’s working for you so far. Andrea Sager 32:33 Yeah, and we’re going to be starting affiliate for Andrea Sager 32:38 our new company, and we’re hoping to do a ton of podcasters for affiliates because our affiliate program will bring in more revenue. Our affiliate program will bring in more revenue than you would you would get from a traditional, you know, the traditional I guess what is it 20 $20 per thousand downloads or So the market rate or something like that, it’s Yeah, after Melissa Guller 33:03 that, just to clarify, in case this is new for people, the going rate is usually that you get $20 for about every thousand downloads on your show. And some podcasts certainly get much more than that. But you can see how you need to have a pretty high volume in order to benefit from sponsorship specifically. Andrea Sager 33:23 Right, yeah, so we’re hoping that our affiliate program can help a lot of podcasters out with, you know, bringing in revenue for themselves and actually getting, getting some of those expenses back because I know that producing a podcast and producing it isn’t cheap. Mm hmm. Melissa Guller 33:39 And as we do kind of start to wrap up for any listeners who are fortunate to tune in the week that this episode is released, you actually have a really great free workshop coming up, and I’d love to talk more about it. So I’ll include a link to register in the show notes. But can you tell us more about what’s in store for you next? Andrea Sager 33:58 Yes. So we are producing three free training sessions on June 24, and 25th. So there’s three types to choose from, it’s all the same, so just register for one. But you’re going to learn how exactly contracts benefit your business and how they, you know what, what contracts you need for your specific industry, because it’s one thing to know. Okay, I know I need an independent contractor agreement. But how do I find one that applies to me because it’s easy to go to Google and search independent contractor agreements, but it’s very general, it’s very generic, and you need something that’s very tailored specifically to your industry. And that’s what we’re talking about in the training is how, how to know what contracts you need for your industry. how those contracts actually protect you because there’s some clauses that are very important and can save you thousands and thousands of dollars and where exactly Get those contracts without spending hundreds of dollars per template, or hundreds of dollars per custom contract. So we’re talking all things contracts in those three workshops. It’s free, every single session is free. We just want to educate and help small business owners determine how to actually legally protect your business with contracts, because I know that it’s scary. It’s something you don’t want to think about. And I’ve been there where, you know, I’ve had plenty of clients, they’re like, Hey, I download this template from Google, I have no idea how to tailor this to my business. So that’s what we’re going to be teaching you is how to get all those things done without spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on one contract. Melissa Guller 35:43 I know I can’t wait because I have for the longest time felt like there was no middle ground. It was either those free templates that you’re talking about, which really don’t do enough to protect you, or it’s super expensive, feels very unattainable for me, you know, especially in the early At my business, I knew I wanted to be protected, but also like, girls got a wallet to worry about, and it just wasn’t in the cards. So I am just so excited to have you with this amazing, free set of workshops, giving people the knowledge about protecting themselves and getting way more in depth than we were able to get today. So like I said, I’ll include a link to register for the time that works best in the show notes. And even if people are tuning in later, there are still going to be tons of great resources that Andrea has in those show notes. So please still check it out. And we’ll make sure that all of you are taken care of. So Andrea, before we do go, do you have any final advice for our podcasters tuning in today? Andrea Sager 36:39 Yes, don’t put the legal stuff off until the last minute. Don’t wait until there’s an issue. I promise you will spend less money by tackling your legal stuff upfront than you would if you were to wait and defend yourself later on down the road. Melissa Guller 36:56 Mm hmm. Great advice. It’s easy to assume you’ll do it later. And it’s not Maybe something on anybody’s to do list for today because it could always wait until tomorrow. But like you said, that’s a dangerous road to go down. So I think this whole episode has been such a valuable resource for our listeners about both trademarks and contracts. And I know, I’ve learned a lot myself as well. So thank you again for joining. And I hope that people really take the info to heart and check out the upcoming workshops. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us this week. If you’re tuning in during this episode’s launch week, don’t miss the free masterclass Andrea’s leading next week all about contracts for your online business. It’s called what contracts you need to legally protect your business and how to get them without spending thousands or getting screwed over by copying someone else’s. I know it’ll be great and it’s on June 24 and 25th at three different times. Plus, when you sign up for free, you’ll immediately get another free bonus from Andrea. It’s a lawyer built checklist that ensures that You’ve got all the necessary contracts for your business. Again, the webinar is totally free. And you can save your spot at witandwire.com/contractvault. If the live date has passed, don’t worry, there are so many great resources for you from Andrea at witandwire.com/contractvault, so I’d encourage you to check it out anytime. Thanks again for joining me, Melissa Guller In this episode of Wit & Wire, I’ll see you next time, podcasters.

Want us to send you the newest tutorials?

Subscribe to Wit & Wire Weekly and join 24k+ online business owners who receive Melissa’s weekly course creation tutorials and simplified marketing strategies each Thursday via email (free).